Dangerous Questions...

Brunswick, GA-based singer/songwriter David Herndon is not afraid to ask dangerous questions. Editor of About Christian Music, Mark Tulk, spoke with him recently to find out more about his new EP 'Into Danger, Out of Rescue' and why it's actually okay to question God (every now and then)...

Mark Tulk: Thanks for your time today David. Perhaps you could start by briefly describing the sort of music you do... I suppose the sort of style, or genre you feel it best fits into...

David Herndon: You know that's a really hard question to answer. I've always seen myself as more of an acoustic, folk artist. I grew up listening to a lot of Bob Dylan and that kinda stuff, and when I wrote Into Danger, Out of Rescue I can't say I wrote it as much as it wrote me. These songs kinda found me. Each one, after I wrote it, was like 'now that's different!' I've definitely written songs before where I've just sat down and said 'I want to write a song that sounds like this, or says this'... but these really came out of a season when I was not writing music. I wasn't writing but I'd sit down and strum the guitar, and all of a sudden every one of those songs -- they didn't all come at once, they came over the course of a year or so -- just came in a 'bam' moment. So I feel that this EP kinda fits into a rock genre, but for me it's really about each song having just a little piece of it that doesn't fit anywhere... and that's kinda the point... to get your attention.

Mark Tulk: And it's actually been quite a while since your first record with Rebuilt... is that right? A few years ago?

David Herndon: Like five or six years ago now!

Mark Tulk: Wow. Why so long between records? Have you felt there's not been the material there to release?

David Herndon: We recorded that first CD at my house on a little eight-track... you know, I wasn't married yet or anything like that, and right after we released it, I got married a few months later, then we were pregnant, had a child and moved to another city, started a new job... it was just one thing after another. And in the midst of that I wasn't really out playing and I didn't really have time to sit down and write. So in a spiritual sense, I think God's put the desire in my heart to do this, and now's the time when he wants me to answer that call. But I think, in reality, it just wasn't time. The songs that I have out now, they definitely came out of seasons of experience and 'trial by fire'. God took me through some experiences and taught me a lot of things that I don't think I would've learned otherwise. And that's really where this new EP comes from. So I have a lot of good reasons why I wasn't putting anything out, but I think in reality it was just God holding me back.

Mark Tulk: It wasn't the right time...

David Herndon: Yeah, that's right.

Mark Tulk: The album, Into Danger, Out of Rescue also comes with a short book of 'reflections' or -- more accurately -- questions. Could you tell us a little bit about what's behind the name of the album and the concept?

David Hernon: The title phrase actually comes from one of the other demos that didn't make it onto the EP, but that followed the same theme... And one of them has that phrase in it, 'running into my danger, out of my rescue'. It's really the bottom line; I think all too often, especially in Christianity, we want everything to look 'right', and look nice and be easy to understand, easy to swallow, easy to hear. We want to feel better, we want answers. And so we protect ourselves. In a deeper way I actually think we're trying to protect God -- by staying away from the stuff we don't understand and the stuff we don't have good answers for. We're actually limiting our experience of God and our relationship with God by doing that. God spoke to me through this project and encouraged me to be okay with not having all the answers and to be okay with having doubts and going through hard times and even being angry at God... It's okay to be frustrated with God. It's not okay to give up on God. But really, our doubts -- instead of being a hinderance to our faith -- can be an accelerator to our faith. But in order for that to happen, we've got to be willing to risk a little bit, to humble ourselves, to be uncomfortable and maybe even go through a little pain so that we can get closer to God. And that seems dangerous, but it actually comes out of a place of rescue. Once we've really surrendered to God and experienced his salvation and his rescue in our life, that should empower us and encourage us to get even more 'dangerous' in some sense. And so that's kinda the way the album flows. It starts with the song Church or a Brothel -- a song with a more broad, worldly theme to it. The album then moves to relationships: relationship with yourself, love of self, and then -- with the song Static -- it moves to the theme of relationship with God and how frustrating that can be. It ends with the song Feeble -- and Feeble is really the message of the Album. It's kinda saying 'you've got to be willing to take a step, even if it's small, if it's weak, even if you fall down... whatever... you've got to be willing to go there'.

Mark Tulk: This album seem to me to be very much a personal statement, in that it has come out of your own personal experience and observations. But in a broader sense, though, do you feel that this album needed to be made -- considering your culture, your context, the Church in America? Do you see it, in some way, speaking into all this... a wake-up-call of sorts?

David Herdon: I feel it speaks into a lot of different areas. When you talk about the Church, at least in America, there is definitely a push in the Church right now to become 'relevant'. That's the big phrase, to meet people where they are. There's lots of technology and stuff like that, which I think can be a good thing, but I think sometimes we take it too far. And if you look at Jesus' life and Jesus' ministry in the Bible, everywhere he went he left behind him transformation. If you came into town the day after Jesus was there, you knew something big had just happened. People were talking about it, whether they liked it or not, things had changed and people were challenged, people were closerto God, people were restored. And I feel like the church in America is blending in, more than we're standing out. We're trying to make it easy for people, but we're taking it too far to where we're not being noticed. And it's easy. And I don't feel that's what Jesus had in mind. I feel like we ought to be agents of change and agents of transformation. That we ought to challenge things -- not just for the sake of challenging, but we ought to be living in a way that is true to God. Often times that way of living may blend in with society, but I think a lot of times it's going to stand in opposition to it. It's going to be different and that sort of life should be lived in a way that gets people's attention. You know, Jesus offended some people, but he taught with such authenticity that people respected him... and he didn't try to change himself to make himself attractive to other people -- they were attracted to his authenticity; it was passionate and I think the Church needs more of that. And so that's where the song Church or a Brothel comes from. It's kinda going 'are we blending too much that we fit in, that we can't determine the line between secular and religious anymore?' And that's a dangerous place to be. How can we have an impact on people's lives if they can't find us because we all look the same...

Mark Tulk: Maybe you'd like to talk about that song a little more, because that's the song that, just by its title, will no-doubt concern some people. Were you being deliberately provocative there? As far as raising 'dangerous questions' goes, is that perhaps at the cusp?

David Herndon: Definitely. And that song I definitely get the most reaction out of. People seem a lot of times almost offended that I would put 'Church' and 'Brothel' in the same breath. And, you know, that's definitely intentional.

Mark Tulk: So can you explain that song a little more for us?

David Herndon: Well, the basic chorus is 'What's it take for some change?' and when you talk about the Church and Christianity, I think if you went person to person in a church they'd all be able to tell you what they think needs to be different in the world -- what needs to be changed. We're really good at identifying what needs to be changed. But my questions is 'are you willing to do anything about it?'. So the first half of the song is really about what I was talking about earlier... about blending in: you dress like the world, you smell like the world, you taste like the world, you look like the world, you're hanging out in the world. Which is fine in one sense, but are we so complacent in this that nobody can tell where the church is anymore... and what we stand for. Then the second half of the song, with the bridge section, paints a picture of a character leaving church, a place where he's just worshipped God. He's probably made some kind of commitment to living a better life, hearing the Gospel and responding to that. He gets in his car and drives through a city where there's homeless people, there's immigrants that are struggling to make ends meet, there's teenage pregnancies, drug addicts... I mean, porn is running rampant in our country, not to mention marriage problems, divorce rates, child abuse... whatever... the list goes on and on and on... and we drive through it every day. Maybe it's like this in Australia, but in America, if you're like me... a white, middle-class American, when you drive through a bad neighbourhood you reach over and lock the doors. And that's kinda the deal... if you don't want to see it, you want to make yourself immune to it. And I'm kinda saying that we're taking that too far. We get in our safe little bubble, we want to be comfortable, we want to be Christian as long as it's comfortable. But Jesus tells us that's not faith at all. We got to put it into action and so I just kinda try to paint a picture there of this oxymoron... this Christian driving right through the middle of this stuff and not doing anything about it. So what's it take to change that? It's gonna take us breaking the glass, getting out of our bubble and getting our hands dirty. And risking things getting dangerous... putting ourselves in uncomfortable situations. I could talk for days about this sort of stuff...

Mark Tulk: What do you think then is the role of musicians in all this? Is it an almost a 'prophetic' role -- calling people to face the truth they'd rather not face up to?

David Herndon: That's a great point... and it rings true to my heart. I kind of see myself as the 'anti' rock star. You can talk about books, you can talk about TV or movies... people are going to have different opinions. Some people don't watch TV, some people don't read books, but everyone listens to music! Everybody! You'll never meet a person that doesn't listen to music. So music is a very powerful way to get a message across. I think musicians have a responsibility to use such a powerful media responsibly. We have a responsibility to use our music to send a message, to speak to people, to challenge people, to teach and encourage people. And I think a lot of times we want to make it about us. We want to be cool. We want to do stuff that people are going to like. And so I see my role as a musician to challenge that too. If people come to my show, or they listen to my EP, I'm not so concerned whether they like me, or like the music or not. But I do want them to leave thinking about something. And so I think all musicians, in some sense, take on that role. I think the greatest musicians are the ones that do that.

Mark Tulk: Is this album aimed more at the Church then, rather than those outside it?

David Herndon: It probably is geared more towards Christians than anyone else, I think they'd be more challenged by it. But I think the music is done in such a way, and the lyrics are written in such a way that non-Christians could listen to it and get just as much out of it. And that's really Paul [Reeves] and Jason [Harwell] -- they did such a great job of producing it and putting it together.

Mark Tulk: Could you tell us a little bit about the book that accompanies the record? What did you set out to achieve through writing it?

David Herndon: I've been writing a blog for several years, and as Jason and I recorded this,we'd get to talking about how the songs had depth, in that there's a lot to think about in the lyrics. And Jason started saying I ought to write something about that, put the ideas into a blog... find some way to take it deeper. And so I started writing and then I got the idea 'what if we put a book in there?'. Just a short book and have a chapter coincide with a song and do it in the style I write my blogs in... usually some kind of half story-telling, half teaching. But then I had the thought... 'what if I wrote a book that didn't give any answers?'. You know, a lot of times we read books 'cause we want to figure something out. And so I thought, 'what if I wrote a book that didn't help anyone figure anything out?'. It didn't give any answers, it only pushed them further. I suppose it's an aid to the music, to make sure that the message comes across... and that's really what this project's about: the message. It's not so much about the music -- although I'm proud of the music and I'm really proud of the book -- it's really about the message. You've got the music, you've got the stories, you've got the writings, you've got the questions.

Mark Tulk: What do you think stops most people asking 'dangerous' questions... taking the sort of risks you talk about in your book? Is it simply fear... or do you think it reflects their own faith experience too?

David Herndon: There's so many things there. I think there are cultural expectations, like them or not... for instance, for me to do what I'm doing right now! I've been working a full time job at a church, I have a family with two kids and a wife... you know I have a pretty good life. But for me to go and say 'you know what? I'm gonna go part-time so that I can have time to travel and do my music'. People are like 'you can't do that! That's not a smart move'.

Mark Tulk: Sounds like starting a record label... [laughter]

David Herndon: Exactly! People will tell you you're not going to make any money. I don't expect to make any money. That's not really what it's about. So there are those cultural norms... people resist taking risks because of what other people might think. And sometimes we just can't bear people's opinions. You know, you don't want to have to explain yourself all the time. Then there are those around you who believe in you... and I know I couldn't do what I'm doing if my wife wasn't able to look me in the eye and tell me she believes in me. And I can say this with all honesty, it wouldn't matter how clearly I was hearing God's voice, if my wife didn't back me up, I couldn't do it. And I think that's a good thing. But some people just don't have those people in their life and I think that holds them back. I think ultimately we limit ourselves... we put restrictions on ourselves. Somewhere along the way we've decided what we are and what we're not capable of -- we've gone ahead and made that decision before we've even tried... so ultimately we're afraid of failing. We're afraid of doing something and people telling us it's not going to work and then it doesn't work... no-one wants to go through that experience. We want it to be the other way of 'ha, I told you it'd work!'. But really, there's no way to know...

Mark Tulk: That seems to me like some of the stories in the Bible, like even with Abraham and Isaac... these amazing stories where God just says do something and people obey him without any guarantees whatsoever.

David Herndon: Yeah, I'm glad you said Abraham and Isaac because that's a story close to my heart. What really gets me pumped about that story is that obviously Abraham has made some mistakes, but in his old age God says to him 'go up the mountain and sacrifice your son' and the very next verse says 'early the next morning Abraham set out'... He didn't hesitate, he jumped into it. Obviously he was able to do that because he had been tested before, but that's what I want to encourage people to do: 'you gotta take that step!'. 'You don't have to try to change your whole life at once, just take a step in that direction. Just put your feet in the water and see what it feels like.'

Mark Tulk: Do you think there's also a fear there for some people of not hearing God speak? That maybe they'll get it wrong... you know, it's one of those things that anyone can say 'God told me to do this!'

David Herndon: Sometimes God will tell us something and it'll be clear and we know what God wants us to do, but we can't comprehend how it's going to work out in our minds. And so we don't want to tell people 'God told me to do this', and then do it and not have it work! We think that's going to make God look 'bad'. And ultimately it's a hard issue -- 'if I do this and it doesn't work' or if I feel like God doesn't come through, what is that going to mean for my faith? If I pray for God to heal a person that's sick and they die anyway, am I still going to be able to believe in God? I think we have an incorrect perception... you know, sometimes I think God does call us to fail. I think sometimes it's not just 'all roses' with God. Sometimes he puts you in a difficult circumstance on purpose -- sometimes it's for building you up, sometimes it's for building another person up... sometimes you need that experience so that you'll be able to face something later in life. And so when we get into trying to understand everything, we're really limiting ourselves. It's definitely a faith issue.

Mark Tulk: There's always still a risk in claiming to have heard 'a word' from God. But, I suppose what you're saying is just because there's a risk doesn't mean we shouldn't launch out, is that it?

David Herndon: Definitely! I mean that's totally what I'm saying: don't be afraid to just try.

Mark Tulk: Do you think you run the risk of offending, or even alienating some people by some of your 'dangerous' questions? For example, do you think there are those who might take the line that if you really trusted God you wouldn't be asking these sorts of questions... or maybe just turn off altogether due to the fact that you put 'Church' and 'Brothel' together in the same sentence?

David Herndon: When you said that thing about 'if you trusted God you wouldn't question...' well it's because I trust God that I do! And that's what I'm saying -- I think we've got it all wrong. You look at David in the Book of Psalms. The Bible describes him as a 'Man after God's own heart' and you read some of the psalms and he's saying 'God, you're doing it wrong... you're screwing this up, you're not doing what you said you'd do...'. And he's just being honest with God and I think God wants that. Now I think we need to have a holy fear and a holy respect for God, but I think at the same time, like with my child, as an example, I let him through a tantrum sometimes because I know he doesn't know any better. And I want to let him do that. I'm going to let him have his frustration and I'll still be there when he gets done. You know, I think it's the same with God. Sometimes he tells us 'no' and we throw our tantrums, but he's still there for us. And so it's okay to ask questions. I do worry about offending people -- my heart is not to offend anyone. My heart is to encourage them, but I believe that with this message... people won't really listen to it unless there is kind of a 'controversial' tone about it. You know what I mean... in our society we have so many messages coming to us in so many different forms that it takes a big statement to get our attention, to make us stop and listen. So I think sub-consciously that was behind the songs when I wrote them, that it should get people's attention. I wanted them to ask 'what's going on here?' and be willing to explore things more.

Mark Tulk: And as far as what you'd love for people to get out of the album? What sort of responses would you ideally like to see from people?

David Herndon: I can think of a few things right away. I had lunch with a guy just the other day who'd bought the CD and read the book. He said that by listening to the CD and reading the book he'd been reminded of something God had laid on his heart for a long time now, that he had been afraid to do it... he had lots of good reasons why he shouldn't do it, but the EP is what pushed him over the edge -- he finally said 'okay, God, I'll do it'. Now that pumps me up. I had another lady come up to me who had listened to it -- she actually came to the CD release party. And she said 'I came here tonight 'cause I thought you had the answer, I thought that was what this was about... that you were ready to tell us the secret, tell us the answer... but I'm leaving here with more questions than I came in with!'. And she meant it as a compliment -- she was smiling when she said it. And I couldn't help but think 'good! you got it!'. You know that's what I want. I want people to realise that God wants to be sought after... he wants us to seek him. There are so many scriptures that come to mind... Jeremiah says 'when you seek me with all your heart, then you will find me'. 'Ask and the door will be opened'. 'Ask and you will receive'. And so on... there's just so many of them. God just wants to be sought... and that means asking questions. That means going to places you don't think God would normally be... and looking for him there. He actually wants us to look for him! In reality there is no secular and religious... everything is spiritual. I'm getting on a tangent here... sorry Mark... we like to divide everything up and box it up into safe and dangerous, spiritual, secular... you know, whatever. We box it up and compartmentalise so much, we keep everything nice and neat and God's saying 'dump the boxes out, lay it all on the table... I want to be in all of it.' 'I want to be at the centre of your life. I want to be in every bit of it.' Because ultimately is it all God's anyway. And I just want people to realise that they need to look for God. I think for some people it begins that way, but it becomes real in the small steps... just looking for God while you're having dinner with your family. Looking for God while you're stuck in traffic. You know, looking for God while you're in the grocery store... just whatever. You know, just look for him. Take a step to make him a bigger part of your life.

Mark Tulk: I know you've touched on this already, but why do you think people like to divide things into Christian and Non-Christian... I mean, dialoguing around that question is one of the reasons we set up our website...

David Herndon: And it's a really good question! I don't know... I think it gives us the ability to control things. We want to be in control and if I'm a non-believer I don't want Christian music on my radio, because I don't want to go there. I don't want to have to think about that stuff. I don't want to hear it because if I think about it, there might be a chance you'll talk me into it... you know what I mean? Or maybe in my heart I already want to believe, but am not yet believing... so listening to that could mean serious changes in my life and I'm not ready for that... I want to be in control of my life. The other thing is, here in the South, in America, there's a lot of racial tension. You know, there's a lot of history there and it's kinda the same thing. Back in the day, and even today in some places, they want to keep the races separate because they're scared of losing control. And it's just stupid really. That's anti-Christian thought really, because it shouldn't be about us being in control... it's about God being in control.

Mark Tulk: And so then where do you think your music fits, with regard to being 'Christian' or 'Secular'?

David Herndon: I don't know... there's like two extremes of Christian music... there's the Christian Music that is like blatant 'Jesus is the answer', happy, make you feel good music... and then at the other end of the spectrum there's the Christian Music that doesn't really say 'Jesus' in the music... like 'undercover' Christian Music. I think both of them have their place and I listen to both of them and I appreciate both of them, but for me, I just think it all comes down to the heart of the person bringing the message. Sadly, I think there are people out there who are 'Christian Artists' but not even really Christians. I think that's the danger of dividing things up and putting labels on them like that... there's always going to be room for someone to exploit it... And for me, I'm in a tough position because if I take my music to a secular radio station they say 'that's Christian music, we're not going to play that!'. And if I go to a Christian station they say, 'we're not playing that, we want people to feel good and that won't make them feel so good'. But that's kinda the point I suppose... so I'm okay with that.

Mark Tulk: And I guess it's being true to the songs you want to sing, rather than just focussing on the market you want to sell to... So where will you be playing this material mainly? Are you touring it around?

David Herndon: I'll be doing a good bit more travelling. A lot of campus ministries, to college students who are Christians... if I had to pick a target audience that'd be it. You know, these students who do believe -- this is a prime time in their lives to really shape their beliefs. And here in America at least, a lot of students at that stage of their lives get an incorrect view of what Christianity really is. It can become so legalistic... if I look back on my college days and my faith, it was all about making sure I had my quiet time, reading so many chapters of the Bible, how much time I spent in prayer... I guess that can be a good thing, but sometimes it goes too far. You graduate from college, get a job and a family and you just don't have that time... it becomes a much different machine. I think part of my role is to show these students and say, 'you know what? don't get over spiritual', which sounds weird... but there's practical ways to live it out. When I was eighteen, if I spent an hour reading my Bible I felt really spiritual, now if I spend and hour with my son I feel really spiritual and maybe I hadn't even read the Bible that day. It changes as you get older. You have to be open to that.

Mark Tulk: Is there anything else you'd like to add in conclusion?

David Herndon: Yeah... I'm not out of here to promote myself, I'm not out of here to promote my songs... but I am out of here to promote a message. I feel that God's call for me is to be a messenger and so I'll do that within any avenue I can. Right now I feel that avenue is music. So I'm looking to use my music websites, my blogs... all that... I want people to visit them... I'm going to be putting up free songs once a month, you know, blogs... I'm just trying to put something up there all the time that can be a resource for people. So even after they buy EP and read the book, there's still going to be more for them to come back to. I'm committed to that.

Mark Tulk: Now one final question, and it's probably the toughest one... You have referred to yourself as a 'messenger' now on a few occasions... if you had to summarise that 'message' into a simple phrase or single sentence, what would it be?

David Herndon: Mmmm. That's a hard one...I suppose, 'keep looking'. Which gets back to Into Danger, Out of Rescue... you think about a rescue situation... like someone shipwrecked out in the middle of the ocean. The coastguard comes and pulls him in and you think that's the end of the rescue -- and in that situation it is -- but spiritually, we look at is as 'well I've been saved, now I'm a Christian, the work is over... that's the end of the journey'. But that's the wrong way to look at it... it's only the beginning of the journey. That's the beginning of faith and so don't become complacent... don't think you're at the end when you're really at the beginning. You've got to keep looking and keep exploring and be open to new things. I'm not saying believe everything everyone says about God... you know, we got a brain, we ought to use it. But we have to be open to God speaking to us in different ways and looking for how he's speaking to us. It's not always going to feel good... it's not always going to make sense, but don't get into the habit of thinking that God's only going to speak to you in comfortable, easy kind of ways, because you're going to limit yourself. And we've got to learn to hear God in all ways... even the painful ones, the dangerous ones. So yes, you have been rescued, but that does not exclude you from danger.

Mark Tulk: Thanks so much for your time today David, it's been great talking with you.

David Herndon: Thank you Mark!

 

FREE* Download! 'Church Or A Brothel' - [2.6 MB] David Herndon/Rebuilt Records 2008

www.davidherndonmusic.com/

David Herndon lives in Brunswick, GA, USA with his wife and two small children. He has led worship for 13 years and is presently Worship Leader at 'The Chapel', a church plant that is currently the fastest growing Methodist Congregation in South Georgia. He is also a Singer/Songwriter signed to Rebuilt Records, a non-profit recording label in Athens, GA. His new EP Into Danger/Out of Rescue was released on 29 January, 2008.

* If you've downloaded David's song and really like it, do the right thing... support a 'starving artist'! Visit the Rebuilt Store and buy the EP! :)